Posts by Doug Mason

15

Has the organisation the biblical right to judge its members?

by Marcel in

okay, before you say straight "no!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!1111111111111111" let us rethink.

lets say jehovas witnesses actually have the truth.

Doug Mason

The True Church of Christ is made up of members of any faith and of none. It is an invisible organization, and only God can remove a member from it. It is made up of people who have a personal relationship with their God.

An organized religion can cast a person from its membership, but they cannot cast that person from God.

Organized religions remove dissenters to protect their own rule.

Doctrine is not our savior. Even though I have all faith and I have all knowledge but do not have agape, I am nothing. That's what matters.

Jesus told his followers to leave the separation of the weeds from the wheat to God. They should grow together until God plucks them out.

Doug

56

1894 A Conspiracy Exposed

by Lady Lee in

1894-a-conspiracy-exposed.pdf (32.74 mb) .

many of us wonder what kind of a man russell was.

the april 25, 1894 watch tower there was a special edition exposing a conspiracy regarding a possible overthrow of russell's power.. page 11 states that a bro zech disagreed with russell's opinion that the printed page was the best way to preach the word.

Doug Mason

I understand that Rose Ball married Henninges, who is also mentioned in "Conspiracy Exposed".

Russell sent them to Australia, but they formed their own movement in Melbourne.

I have photocopies of title pages from some of their books, which are (were?) held in the Public Library here in Melbourne.

Doug

5

When men think they are the "Kingdom of God"

by Doug Mason in

in his book kingdom of god, john bright writes the following:.

although the new testament teaches us that the people of christs kingdom are his obedient followers, his church, there is never the slightest hint that the visibly existing church can either be or produce that kingdom.. there is no tendency in the new testament to identify the visible church with the kingdom of god.. the church that makes such an identification will soon begin to invite god to endorse its own very human policies and practices, will equate the people of god with those nice people who share its particular beliefs and participate in its services, and will reckon the advance of the kingdom in terms of its numerical growth.

but it will not be the new testament church!.

Doug Mason

In his book “Kingdom of God”, John Bright writes the following:

Although the New Testament teaches us that the people of Christ’s Kingdom are his obedient followers, his Church, there is never the slightest hint that the visibly existing church can either be or produce that Kingdom.

There is no tendency in the New Testament to identify the visible church with the Kingdom of God.

The church that makes such an identification will soon begin to invite God to endorse its own very human policies and practices, will equate the people of God with those nice people who share its particular beliefs and participate in its services, and will reckon the advance of the Kingdom in terms of its numerical growth. But it will not be the New Testament church!

Such an identification is a great snare, as prophets since Amos have told us. It only fathers the fatuous conceit of rightness with God by external conformity, and the equally fatuous expectation of divine protection -- for, forsooth, this is his church! Not so the New Testament!

The Church is indeed the people of the Kingdom of Christ, but the visible church is not that Kingdom. On the contrary, let it take heed to itself, lest by its behavior it becomes so much lukewarm water to be spewed out of the mouth of God (Rev. 3:16)! Let it live in full awareness that it, too, is under the judgment of God (Rom. 2:5; 14:10; I Cor. 3:13; 4:5; 11 Cor. 5:10). It, too, the new and pure Israel, must be purged!

The church is like a wheatfield in which a good many weeds have come up (Matt. 13:24-30). Weeds and wheat now grow side by side in it, but God (and only God: vss. 28-29!) will know how to separate them. (The Kingdom of God, John Bright, page 236)

1

Could I please see a :Vow"

by Doug Mason in

each member of the religious order of ordained ministers belonging to the worldwide order of special full-time servants of jehovah's witnesses has taken a vow of poverty.. i would like to see a scan (jpg, gif, etc) of the "vow" they take (personal names blackened, of course).. in the meantime, while waiting for a scan, i would like to know the wording of the vow.. the watch tower has used the presence of this religious order to claim financial benefits provided to religious bodies, particularly taxation relief (see, for example: http://www.publications.ojd.state.or.us/tc4708a.htm).

so this shows one purpose of "the order".. it is not clear how the orders existence will impact on the organizations evolution.

change is inevitable, with time-related issues pressing on the organization, particularly those related to 1914, 1919 and 1935.. the organization also has to address its dwindling numbers of anointed (the 144,000) and that virtually none has any impact on the teachings.

Doug Mason

Each member of the religious order of ordained ministers belonging to the Worldwide Order of Special Full-Time Servants of Jehovah's Witnesses has taken a vow of poverty.

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A SCAN (JPG, GIF, ETC) OF THE "VOW" THEY TAKE (PERSONAL NAMES BLACKENED, OF COURSE).

In the meantime, while waiting for a scan, I would like to know the wording of the “Vow”.

The Watch Tower has used the presence of this “religious Order” to claim financial benefits provided to religious bodies, particularly taxation relief (see, for example: http://www.publications.ojd.state.or.us/TC4708A.htm). So this shows one purpose of "the Order".

It is not clear how the Order’s existence will impact on the organization’s evolution. Change is inevitable, with time-related issues pressing on the organization, particularly those related to 1914, 1919 and 1935.

The organization also has to address its dwindling numbers of Anointed (the “144,000”) and that virtually none has any impact on the teachings. Given the functions performed by each member of the “Order”, it could rise to prominence in future developments.

Given the similarity between the GB and the Papacy, perhaps there is a similarity between the two organizations regarding religious “Orders”.

The creation of the “Order” puts to bed the old assertion that the JW organization does not have a clergy/laity division, for one certainly exists now.

I had thought the term “Bethel” referred to the NY HQ, but obviously I was wrong:
“Branch offices (around the world), as well as the world headquarters, are staffed by Bethel family members, who are included in the Order of Special Full-Time Servants.” (2000 Yearbook, page 47)

Doug

8

kyrios--did the NWT pick and choose it's translation in the NT

by Bob Loblaw in

hey everybody,.

i'm not new,...just needed to change my alias.. .

anywho.

Doug Mason

I thought I should give some examples to back up the statements in my previous post, so I put a short piece together and uploaded it to:

http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/Translating_with_prejudice.pdf

Doug

8

kyrios--did the NWT pick and choose it's translation in the NT

by Bob Loblaw in

hey everybody,.

i'm not new,...just needed to change my alias.. .

anywho.

Doug Mason

I thought I should give some examples to back up the statements in my previous post, so I put a short piece together and uploaded it to:

http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/Translating_with_prejudice.pdf

Doug

8

kyrios--did the NWT pick and choose it's translation in the NT

by Bob Loblaw in

hey everybody,.

i'm not new,...just needed to change my alias.. .

anywho.

Doug Mason

The NWT claims to use the Tetragram wherever the NT quotes the OT. It goes further, by using it in parts of speech, at allusions, and so on.

Further, as its "J20" reference shows, there are places where the NT quotes an OT reference where the Tetragram appears but the NWT does not use "Jehovah".

In addition, there are instances where some of its "J" sources use the Tetragram (in Hebrew letters and not spelled as "Jehovah"), but the NWT does not.

Do you want specific examples, or is that enough?

Doug

15

Daniel 4:1-37, "Seven times"

by Son of John in

daniel 4:1-37, "seven times".

what was the tree like, before it was cut down?

the situation is described in daniel 4:11, 12:.

Doug Mason

In the SECOND chapter of Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar is given a dream of a statue that has a head of gold, followed by parts of lesser materials. He is told the head represents his kingdom, which was to be followed by others.

In the THIRD chapter, Nebuchadnezzar builds just such a statue, but it is gold from head to toe. He thus sees his kingdom lasting forever, and it is he who must be worshipped, on pain of death.

In the FOURTH chapter, Nebuchadnezzar is given an experience that forces him to declare the message he had been given by Daniel when he experienced his first dream -- that "The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory" (Dan 2: 37, NIV).

Following his experience, Nebuchadnezzar finally acknowledges the supremacy of the Most High God:

"At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever. His dominion is an eternal dominion; his kingdom endures from generation to generation.

"All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?” …

"Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble." (Dan 4: 34 – 37, NIV)

Doug

6

What IS the "Worldwide Order"?

by Doug Mason in

the more i uncover, the more i realize how little i really know.. after putting my org chart together, i have a question: who or what is this worldwide order?.

if this is the formal name of the full-time members within the overall organization, what is the name of the overall organization?

could it be something like new world society?.

Doug Mason

The more I uncover, the more I realize how little I really know.

After putting my org chart together, I have a question: “who or what is this ‘Worldwide Order’?”

If this is the formal name of the full-time members within the overall organization, what is the name of the overall organization? Could it be something like “New World Society”?

I understand that names such as “Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society” and “International Bible Students association” are identities created to satisfy the legal requirements of a State. This gives legal status to the entity, permitting it to operate its religious activities within that jurisdiction. When a state/country does not legally recognize a name such as WTBTS or IBSA, the organization might be forced to operate clandestinely. That is, it appears to me that the name WTBTS or IBSA is an identity employed to facilitate the religious operations.

Does this mean that “the Worldwide Order” is name of the religious body that operates behind these legally required terms?

The “Worldwide Order” (the “Order”) includes all of the organization’s full-time operatives, numbering about 20,000. The Order includes Circuit Overseers and Special Pioneers, but not Substitute Circuit Overseers. (I know this is nothing new to you guys, but I am trying to catch up from the outside with your knowledge.)

Does this mean “the Order” is a full-time “Class” of about 20,000 that manages the operations of a “Class” of part-timers?

Are there women in the “Order”? If so, do they strike a glass ceiling as they climb the tree?

A member of “the Order” would not need to be anointed, but this is irrelevant, since every “Witness” has “holy spirit”. And not every anointed would need to be a member of “the Order”.

When I read about the religious claims made before a US court by a JW congregation, I read that they built a house for use by the “Order”. (http://www.publications.ojd.state.or.us/TC4708A.htm : “[name] has taken vows of poverty, lifelong service, and obedience to the Order, as did the nuns in House of Good Shepherd, (vows of poverty, service, and obedience), and the priest in Roman Catholic Archdiocese, (vows of marriage to church, service, and obedience), and because the Order promises its members housing in return, [name] must live where the Order sends him.” )

So, is my understanding of “the Order” going along the correct pathway?

Doug

11

I believe I am getting there

by Doug Mason in

in a recent post, i asked for help with a "jw" organization chart i am trying to create.. my greatest problem was with understanding the relationships at the "upper level" of the organization.

i have addressed this in some detail in my latest iteration and believe i am getting closer.. my picture is at:.

http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/org_chart.pdf.

Doug Mason

Arthur and yesidid,

Thanks for your ongoing help. I have already incorporated your ideas that I had seen.

My words re the DO were suggested by a JW. I have never been one, so I am relying on help such as yours.

I only wish I could see a Manual for the HLC. I must search.

I have put the latest version (as at 22 April) at: http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/org_chart.pdf

If anyone is interested, at http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/1971_Theocratic_Organization.pdf I have provided a (redrawn by me) sketch of the diagram in the December 15 1917 Watchtower.

Doug